They Were Happy Because They Knew They Were Going To Die
I interviewed Shimizu Hiroshi this past October. His directorial debut, Ikinai ("Not to live" in English),
was playing as part of the Dragons & Tigers series at the Vancouver International Film Festival. This represents
the first movie to be released from Office Kitano, not directed by Takeshi Kitano himself. For those not familiar
with Kitano, he's a massive celebrity in Japan, known for more than just his movies-outside of Japan, however,
his movies have huge cult followings, comparable in size to, say, Wong Kar-Wai, or perhaps John Woo before he was
namedropped in the Beastie Boys' "Sure Shot."
Though I doubt Shimuzu and Kitano would be in accord, I view Ikinai and Kitano's most recent feature from 1997,
Hana-Bi ("Fireworks" in English), as companion pieces. After all, both involve pre-suicide tours through
a tremendously beautiful Japanese countryside, in which serenity and pathos exist side-by-side. I reviewed Fireworks
on the back cover of the latest print issue, #1.2.
Plot synopsis for Ikinai borrowed from VIFF guide, as written by Tony Rayns, to be followed by sections from the
interview:
"Nine lugubrious men converge on a tour bus outside Naha Airport in Okinawa, joining a tour organizer, a guide
and a driver, all of them equally grave. These people have debts they cannot meet, and plan to die in an 'accidental'
crash two days later; the 'tour' is a scam to enable their dependents to claim insurance pay-outs-plus, of course,
compensation from the prefectural authority for the 'unsafe' road. At the last minute, though, a young woman shows
up wanting to use the ticket bought by her uncle, now in an asylum. The organizer Aragaki (played by Dankan, also
the screenwrieter) has no option but to let her on the bus. The girl knows nothing about the scam and over the
next 48 hours, inevitably, her cheerful presence spontaneously reawakens a collective will to live on the bus.
But can Aragaki allow the planned crash to be called off."
SAB - I wonder if the director of the bus could be compared to the director of the movie, cause it seems like everyone
on the bus wants to live, and the audience wants them to live to, but the director is against it?
SH - You get the impression that he is like the tour organizer, who entices the audience to feel like the characters
in the film. Is that what you are saying? I guess that means that you can really get yourself into the movie, so
I'm glad that you said that.
SAB - Everybody on the bus wants to die because of debt, so I wonder if the movie has anything to do with the recent
stock market problems in Asia?
SH - I think it is very much the way that the Japanese feel currently, one way or the other. Actually, after I
completed this film, there was a real accident, where three middleaged company owners hung themselves in the hotel
room to pay their debts by the life insurance money. And I was quite surprised, when I watched the news, that such
a thing could happen in real life, because what we told in the film is fiction, but similar things happen in real
life.
SAB - Yeah, you watch the news, and once a week there's a plane crash or a bus crash, and I sometimes wonder if
it's planned. Cause you know if you're going to kill yourself, you want to find a way that people will think it's
an accident ... Well, my own writing looks like Japanese (commenting on my notes, the translater agrees). The movie
was late, so I didn't have time to write my questions. It seems like when I watch Japanese movies, everything looks
so strange and supernatural. Does Japan look strange even to the Japanese, or to you personally?
SH - I would say that the scenery in the Japanese city is very chaotic. It doesn't have one common purpose, one
common unity in creating the city. They just don't care about scenery any more. They only think about the moment.
So it's very unorganized, the scenery in Japanese cities, especially compared to the other cities in the world
I go to for film festivals. They seem to be organized by a preconceived plan, but Japanese cities are just chaotic.
It gets to the point where there's no possibility of fixing up the scenery ...
SAB - So with Fireworks and Ikinai, they both take place mostly in the countryside-I've forgot what my question
was going to be, but anyway what's the difference between the country and the city in Japan?
SH - Like I said last night, the film takes place in the Southernmost part of Japan called Okinawa, where there's
a real tragic history. For instance, during World War II, Okinawa was the land of the terrible battle, and many
civilians died for the fight, and they committed collective suicide. The US navy landed in Okinawa, and the civilians
committed collective suicide. And if you walk the streets of Okinawa, you can see tombstones everywhere. So there's
a bloody history behind the land of Okinawa. But conversely, the people that live there are very vigorous, and
very energetic, and very active, and positive thinkers. So I thought it would be a great contrast, to take a bus
load of people who have a death wish to the land filled with people who have an energetic attitude towards life,
and in the land of tragic history. Personally, I think that Tokyo is seemingly the likely place to shoot film,
but I get the impression that it is somehow impossible to grasp the atmosphere of this city in film.
SAB - I hope it's not a sensitive issue. But in the war, there was the kamikazis and the collective suicide-because
here suicide is like (mortal sin), so I wonder how suicide is looked upon in Japan?
SH - In Ikinai, those people on the bus, you may call it suicide, but killing themselves is the only way to prove
their existence. What's important to them-and sadly, in their case, it's the money that they can deliver to their
family by this tour. So I would say that, if the concept of life is existence, for them death is the only solution
to prove their existence in the world to the other people, and that's kind of very pathetic, and sad, and probably
very difficult for the American people to understand, but in the Japanese case it's sad but very true. They make
themselves exist by dying.
SAB - Sometimes, it's the one thing you can do to take control over your life.
SH - Yeah, I guess this is the option that you can control. But the point is, whether you have the nerve to do
it, or just think about it.
SAB - So in this movie and also in Hana-Bi (Fireworks), there's that one scene where there's the rock garden, and
he drops his camera lense and stumbles into the garden, and then in this movie they have all these old Japanese
temples and sites. So how do these ancient things relate to the present?
SH - I think these places are not the places you deal with in your ordinary, daily life. Those are places you only
go to on a tour, or a festival. It's not the place you go to everyday, except for the few occasions you go on a
tour. Interestingly, in Hana-Bi (Fireworks), and also in this film, they go to these places on a trip, not in their
daily life.
SAB - So, in Hana-Bi/Fireworks, this rock garden symbolizes the universe, and so when Beat Takeshi falls in it,
it seems like some very deep joke?
SH - I don't have a clue about what you just said. There is probably no deep significance.
SAB - But still it's funny to think that this is a map of God's plan or something, and Beat Takeshi is ruining
the order?
SH - Probably Takeshi Kitano will use that comment for his own interview, like 'that rock garden symbolizes the
universe organized by God.'
SAB - So in these movies, it seems like comedy is like violence, because they both come from nowhere. It's explosive.
SH - In this film, Ikinai, the characters are very much ordinary people, except they have the wish to commit suicide.
Most Japanese people can relate to these people, because there's nothing peculiar about them, and think 'Oh, I
have seen these kinds of people.' So it may be right that comedy and violence are similar, because they happen
unexpectedly, but in my film I wanted to express the sadness, the pathos behind those comedic scenes. So probably,
the situation behind Takeshi Kitano's film and my film-the characters are different from one another.
SAB - So, do you think that would be normal in Japan to still be taking pictures on the way to your suicide?
SH - Probably, they want to have something to remember or be remembered by. They are on this tour to die, but probably
they do not really wish from the bottom of their heart to die. In this case, they're forced into a situation where
death is the only solution. But in their own heart, they probably don't have the nerve to die. So they want to
leave something to be remembered by. That's why they're constantly taking pictures at every place they go...
SAB - Unfortunately, I have to do another interview straightaway, but there's one more question I really wanted
to ask. When I watch Takeshi Kitano, and look into his eyes, you just can't understand him. It's like he knows
something you don't.
SH - Probably, it might sound strange. But I often get the same kind of impression from him, even though I've worked
with him for years. Sometimes, I simply don't have a clue what he is saying. He says things that don't make sense
to other people. In my case, I trust my instincts, and guess what he really intends to say, by just hearing his
sketches of words. The last thing I want to do is ask him, 'What exactly do you mean?' That's not important. The
longer you work with him, the more you tend to anticipate before he says it. He's not a logical person, so you
have to rely on your experience and intuition.
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